Log In
Register
The Digital Bolex Forum
Topic RSS
10:57 am
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 18, 2012
Offline
A snip from an e-mail I got from them this morning:
It almost seems like they had spies looking over Joe and Elle's shoulders. I wonder how this new camera would effect the retail rollout of the D16. It looks like the feature set is much better for a similar price. Still excited about my D16, but if the D16 shows up at NAM, there will be close comparisons with the Blackmagic design offering.
---Snip---
Blackmagic Cinema Camera
We have been thinking hard about cameras and some of the limitations in quality that video cameras run into. Working with DaVinci color grading has only made these limitations more noticeable.
Some of the reasons why video cameras look like "video" is because they have limited contrast range, are limited to HD resolutions, use heavy compression for file recording, have poor quality lenses and of course they don't integrate into NLE software with metadata management.
We decided to address these problems by developing a camera that provides feature film quality in an extremely compact portable design.
The Blackmagic Cinema Camera includes a super wide 13 stops of dynamic range, large 2.5K sensor, integrated SSD recorder that has the bandwidth to capture CinemaDNG RAW, ProRes and DNxHD files, integrated capacitive touchscreen LCD for direct metadata entry, standard jack audio connectors, refrigerated sensor and it's fully compatible with EF and ZF mount lenses.
The Blackmagic Cinema Camera also includes SDI and Thunderbolt connectors and it comes with a full copy of DaVinci Resolve and UltraScope software. Imagine plugging in your laptop for on set grading and scopes!
The 13 stops of dynamic range is one of the most important reasons why this camera looks like film. Often people focus on more pixels, but that is just a larger video image. The real way to get film quality is to capture a wide contrast range to retain more detail in the black and white levels of the image. Then once you color grade the images, it looks amazing! Combined with amazing EF and ZF lenses, the result is a true film look!
Of course the quality is killed if you compress the images when recording them, so we built in an SSD recorder. That means you get the recording speed you need to record the full 2.5K RAW sensor data into completely uncompressed CinemaDNG files. This means you get all the detail and quality of the sensor.
No files on this camera are custom in any way and this is the first camera that’s designed to make the whole post production process simple. It records into CinemaDNG format for RAW files, and DNxHD or ProRes for HD resolution files compatible with Avid Media Composer and Apple Final Cut Pro.
You can play back all recorded files on the LCD, and there is a built-in microphone and speaker for reviewing audio. Of course you will want to plug in high quality audio into the standard jack connectors and the audio is always recorded uncompressed for highest quality.
The integrated LCD has a touchscreen and when tapped, a window called the "slate" appears where you can type in shot information just like typing on a smartphone. This is then recorded into the file as metadata in the Final Cut Pro X and DaVinci Resolve format. Common data like shot number can auto increment to save time.
You can also change camera settings on this touch LCD, such as frame rate, shutter angle, color temperature, dynamic range, focus assist settings and more. The SDI output also has overlays showing you all the camera data when monitoring on set, and even the same data when playing back recorded files!
The design is machined from a solid block of aluminum and looks amazing. It’s strong, very compact and designed to be easily hand held. I am still amazed we have fitted all this into such a small design, when normally features like RAW recorders and monitoring can be optional extras on cinema cameras.
A cinematographer friend of ours, John Brawley, has been working with the camera for the last few weeks. He's shot some test clips in the process of working out what the camera’s capabilities are and we have posted them online for your to see. Even though some of them are just hand held test shots near John’s house, they are still great to see as examples of what’s creatively possible. Remember to select HD when viewing them!
http://vimeopro.com/johnbrawle.....ema-camera
We expect to start shipping in volume in July for $2,995.
12:41 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 17, 2012
Offline
I looked at the stats. I'm still happier with my Digital Bolex and now I have no concerns about Raw workflow.
1:03 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 18, 2012
Offline
This sounds excellent. It's a great time to be a filmmaker.
1:26 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 18, 2012
Offline
There is one feature the Blackmagic camera has, that I wish the D16 had, and that is the ability to remove the SSD and replace it. That way, there's no need for SD cards, slow transfers or anything like that. Just slot in a new hard disk... Shoot, and swap it out with a new one when it's filled up.
Shame we couldn't have had that on the D16.
1:28 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
April 12, 2012
Offline
I made comparison table of Blackmagic Cinema Camera and Digital Bolex. There are might be few mistakes, and specs of Digital Bolex are not finalized yet as we know:
2:24 pm
March 19, 2012
Offline
I'm almost willing to bet they're using a CMOS sensor instead of CCD, which is a big strike against it. Their web site is even more grotesquely slow than this one on Firefox, another strike against it. The audio jacks are still on the wrong side, 'nother against it. They support 24-bit 48K audio, mark for it. They support shooting modes with faster post-production, mark for it... those modes are for Mac, big mark against it (I'm not going to switch so I can pay 3x for everything). No C-mount, mark against it. Lower price tag, mark for it. No stupid crank, mark for it.
I don't know, between the things I'm seeking, I think I'm still leaning towards the D-Bolex. Plus, this is a really small company providing a competitive product and I find that cool.
4:07 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
April 12, 2012
Offline
wado1942 said
No C-mount, mark against it. Lower price tag, mark for it. No stupid crank, mark for it.
Electronic control of EF (and Nikon, but I don't care) lenses. This is what I'm missing (yet) at Digital Bolex.
Lower price tag doesn't include those handles. But you can buy something else, this is for sure. Digital Bolex has pistol grip for free. Footage from Blackmagic camera too shaky.
4:41 pm
March 19, 2012
Offline
I don't mind not having electronic lens control. I mean, the real lens is another 5CM further forward. I've never had that feature on any of my better cameras, because I tend to buy older ones. I don't own any Canon lenses. I DO have a variety of decent K-mount lenses and some mediocre C-mount lenses. The deal maker/breaker will be the type of image sensor they used.
4:48 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
April 12, 2012
Offline
wado1942 said
The deal maker/breaker will be the type of image sensor they used.
Few quotes from the Blackmagick Cinema Camera tester, who denies to tell the type of the sensor:
"It does have a rolling shutter, and it’s there if you look for it, but I’d say that it’s no worse than on any other camera at this print."
"It’s no worse than other similarly priced cameras. It’s just a function of sensors at this price point."
5:30 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 17, 2012
Offline
nikitapavlov said
...the ability to remove the SSD and replace it
Me too... Hopefully this Toshiba thing Joe mentioned is as huge as he suggests 
I made comparison table of Blackmagic Cinema Camera and Digital Bolex. There are might be few mistakes, and specs of Digital Bolex are not finalized yet as we know:
Brilliant! Thank you!
I'm almost willing to bet they're using a CMOS sensor instead of CCD...
This is a HUGE mark against the BMCC for me! Not that I know my a$$ from my elbow about electronic engineering, but I wonder if that is how they were able to cram in features like the SSD and HD-SDI at the same price point of the D16. That and nearly endless R&D funds...
I'm happy to see DNG and S16 gaining some traction in digital cinema! I really hope this thread doesn't evolve into a feature war 
6:01 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 17, 2012
Offline
Hey Joe do you think you can get some cameras out by July so we can release footage at the same time as BMCC.
6:14 pm
April 10, 2012
Offline
wado1942 said
I'm almost willing to bet they're using a CMOS sensor instead of CCD, which is a big strike against it. Their web site is even more grotesquely slow than this one on Firefox, another strike against it. The audio jacks are still on the wrong side, 'nother against it. They support 24-bit 48K audio, mark for it. They support shooting modes with faster post-production, mark for it... those modes are for Mac, big mark against it (I'm not going to switch so I can pay 3x for everything). No C-mount, mark against it. Lower price tag, mark for it. No stupid crank, mark for it.
What does website speed under Firefox have to to with a product? Perhaps BM have tens of thousands accessing it -- given it's the first day of NAB.
Today, fast read-out CMOS has only a tiny bit of rolling-shutter which is far less of a problem than CCD smear.
If you are going anti-Mac -- get your facts right. It records ProRes which can be READ by all "pro" PC-based NLE's. Resolve is both PC and Mac. I've read it will record DNxHD which is supported by Media Composer under Windows.
No C-mount. I strongly suspect there are far more Canon lenses available and designed with an MTF designed for 35mm -- recorded resolution should be much higher.
If you want C-mount, the the S8 may be more your cup of tea IF it comes to market at $2K.
Lastly, I've been working with CinemaDNG in Adobe products -- as well as Resolve. You can use CinemaDNG in both AE and Premiere. And, of course, both run PC and Macs.
Note -- I'm not dumping on the DB. But, if you are going to claim to present "pros" and "cons" you need to be accurate. Lastly, the obvious current state of design and the July delivery -- you don't even mention.
6:36 pm
March 19, 2012
Offline
nikitapavlov said
Few quotes from the Blackmagick Cinema Camera tester, who denies to tell the type of the sensor:
"It does have a rolling shutter, and it’s there if you look for it, but I’d say that it’s no worse than on any other camera at this print."
"It’s no worse than other similarly priced cameras. It’s just a function of sensors at this price point."
Great link, thanks for posting that. Most of those shots seemed to be from a distance or slowed a great deal. The one and only obviously handheld shot I saw made me a bit seasick from the warping of the frame. I'll take the CCD smear over that, thank you. It's not much of a problem under proper conditions.
"It records ProRes which can be READ by all "pro" PC-based NLE's."
Good to know, because I've had to have a Mac guy transcode some ProRes for me as none of my editors (including Vegas 8) would open it. I must be missing something.
9:58 pm
April 10, 2012
Offline
wado1942 said
nikitapavlov said
Good to know, because I've had to have a Mac guy transcode some ProRes for me as none of my editors (including Vegas 8) would open it. I must be missing something.
When you install QuickTime Player on PC you get a ProRes decoder. Now, it's possible Sony does not access the decoder codec -- or doesn't in an older version of Vegas.
In fact the only reason I didn't say ALL PC NLEs is because I'm never sure about Vegas although I do have it.
PS: has Joe confirmed Windows software? JVC is only doing an OS X utility for their new QuadHD camcorder.
By the way, although Premiere Pro can import CinemaDNG, it does have serious issues.
12:26 am
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
Offline
Hey Guys,
We got a chance to really check out the Blackmagic camera, they are doing some cool stuff! We're definitely excited for more raw players out there.
They weren't letting anyone hand hold the cameras, but we gave the camera a good shake on the tripod and there is definitely a visible jello effect from the sensor, which I also assume must be a CMOS.
Someone asked them when we were there if it was a CMOS or CCD sensor and the sales guy said he wasn't sure because it was their own sensor. He also told us that they put the camera together really fast (as with all Blackmagic projects).
I think the body style leaves a little to be desired, specifically that I don't think you can hand hold it comfortably without a rig. And the monitor on the back looks a little fuzzy to me, I think it's because it's a touch screen. And you all know how I feel about doing preset in camera debayer schemes!
I do like that they are recording raw, and will be supporting Cinema DNG post work flows!
A lot of people are assuming we are upset by this camera, that they might "beat us" in sales. I just want to tell you guys, we are not a big company that must sell millions of units to justify our products, and we're not in this to get rich. As long as people like what we are doing and want to buy cameras we will make cameras. To me, any product that comes out, that helps grow the amount of people shooting raw is a good thing. We need to get people shooting raw, I very much hope it's the future, not just for my company, but because it's what people deserve. So if Blackmagic helps us get to that future faster, I'm all for it.
Thanks for participating everyone, Joe
1:01 am
April 10, 2012
Offline
Once RED blew-off their a $3K camera, it opened a huge hole in the market so it's only natural that there will be multiple players who enter it. Really no different than the days when Japan had multiple fantastic camcorders in this price space. (I'm speechless over Canon's pricing for something JVC delivers at $5K.)
As a reviewer for Video Systems and Digital Content Producer, I reviewed the whole range from $2000 to $40K. Over 15 years of reviews, there was never an obvious BEST camcorder. That's why I didn't write for magazines that forced a point rating. Cameras are simply too complex to rate.
Joe has given a "preview" that is refreshingly honest. No spin. That is very rare. (I've been to dozens of presentations by the big three and their party-line response to any question about competition really pissed me off. How dumb do they think the press is?)
What's important is that a whole new technology has arrived. I've written a series of technology articles on 4K and RAW for Broadcast Engineering magazine, but never did I imagine these products would arrive in my price range.
This reminds me of two events in my life. When I wrote a long review of the Sony DCR-VX2000 -- which many inside Video Systems said should not appear in a "pro" magazine -- and the JVC HD1/HD10 which ushered in the HDV revolution.
It's going to be an interesting summer for both shooters and reviewers.
3:56 am
March 19, 2012
Offline
I'm not surprised, almost any manufacturer of semiconductors can make CMOS image sensors but only 4-5 companies in the world have the technology to do CCD.
Funny thing, a friend of mine shot a concert with some pretty new HDV cameras and a VX2000. The VX2000 was just on a tripod in the back of the room as a backup in case none of the other cameras had anything useable. He discovered in editing that it had the best picture out of all of them. It was a very good camera in its day and I almost bought one myself.
4:02 am
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
April 12, 2012
Offline
joerubinstein said
A lot of people are assuming we are upset by this camera, that they might "beat us" in sales.
Thanks Joe. I don't think you guys should be upset. I think you should be encouraged that Digital Bolex has some definitely better features than Blackmagic Cinema Camera, and that because you have some more time before production you can make it even better, not sacrificing your position (regarding the RAW process, for example).
I don't really want to annoy you by repeating the same words I repeated not even once, but announcement of that camera arises this questions again. What everyone is excited in it, except of the same things that everyone was excited in Digital Bolex (price/RAW/simplicity/proAudio etc.), is:
1. Their screen. Yeah, it might be fuzzy because of the touchscreen option, but it has focus assist, and you can use the camera without any additional monitor attaching (thought, it's a pity they don't have HDMI port, because we love to have an OPTION).
2. Lens electronic control. As far as I know, EF mount for Digital Bolex will be (at least, at first) fully manual. That means that to change the aperture on the Canon lens you need to attach it to DSLR first, right? Well, I understand that it's not cheap thing to create electronic mount, but I hope I will be able to buy it for my Bolex in the future time.
These are feature killers. But also what is nice, and what wouldn't spoil Digital Bolex to have, is integrated mic (and speaker, but this I don't care because of the earphone plug), remote control port, some metadata options. Of course their 1600 ISO feature, but this depends on the sensor.
Regarding the removable SSD - I don't really care, the price of 10 32GB SD cards is almost the same of the price of the 256GB SSD. If you think this is better/cheaper whatever, I trust you.
But other options - I think we, people who already invested their money in Digital Bolex and who only thinking about it, would be happy if you can consider of implementing some of this features in your camera.
5:37 am
March 27, 2012
Online
The sensor in the BMD camera is larger, a bit less than 4/3 format. S16 lenses won't cover it, hence the reliance on still camera lens systems. It requires SSD's formatted for Macs so would be a hassle for those of us working on PC's. Quicktime based workflows still suffer from well known gamma shift issues when transcoding between other video codecs and Prores.
I'm still more interested in the Bolex for its different crop options that allow the use of a range of 16mm cine glass. Good 16mm glass has significantly higher MTF than all but the best top of the line 35mm lenses, primo examples of the classic Angenieux 12-120 zoom will resolve better than 200 line pairs/mm on a lens projector at center and they are considered a "soft" 16mm lens. Not many 35mm still lenses can do this.
I like the Bolex form factor better too. It lends itself to a much broader range of possible configurations.
The range of software I use in my AV engineering work requires PC systems, not Macs. I don't want to have to duplicate systems to support a camera properly. Nothing wrong with Macs, but I am staying in a PC world. Joe please choose a media file format that is universally supported by all systems, PC Mac or Linux.
6:20 am
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
April 12, 2012
Offline
Razz16mm said
Angenieux 12-120 zoom will resolve better than 200 line pairs/mm on a lens projector at center and they are considered a "soft" 16mm lens. Not many 35mm still lenses can do this.
This is great, but now I have to invest in that Angenieux lens, because I can't control aperture on my Canon's 24-70 and 70-200. Though I happy to have an option of 24-240 fast zoom.
The range of software I use in my AV engineering work requires PC systems, not Macs. I don't want to have to duplicate systems to support a camera properly. Nothing wrong with Macs, but I am staying in a PC world.
You don't have to buy a Mac to use filesystem of BlackMagic's SSD. It's enough to install simple driver software on your Windows computer.