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9:23 am
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 18, 2012
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I figured that a smaller sensor that can handle 1080 or even 2k is just around tcourier, if notallready here
9:53 am
March 19, 2012
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Oh, smaller 1080 sensors exist, don't get me wrong, but going to an S8 sized sensor will reduce the image gathering area of each pixel to about 1/3rd, whereas a 720 line sensor will give you the same latitude as the D16. The smaller the pixel, #1, the less capability it has to gather light and #2, the less difference there is between the saturation point and the noise floor. That's one reason (of many) consumer grade camcorders are so poor in quality. Now, unless you have a 50" TV and you sit about 1 meter away from it, untrained eyes probably won't see the difference between 720 and 1080. In fact, I read a statistic some time ago that most average users can't see the difference between DVD and Blu-Ray, which is HUGE to me, even on a standard def TV, but that's another matter.
10:18 am
July 10, 2012
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Kineraw was developing a S8 camera and it looked excellent at 2.5k.. not sure if they've done anything else with it however.
Like I said before I'd like to see Sony's F35 sensor in a RAW super-35 camera.. not sure if Sony's willing to market their pro line sensors to a third party vendor however, even though it's considered older technology by their standards.
With regards to the db16 I just hope the release build is is built to last.. I'm agreeing with wado - I'll be satisfied with a box and suitable lens mount
10:28 am
March 27, 2012
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When Red was developing the original Scarlet, I worked through what for me would be an ideal small format camera sensor.
4k 4:3 M4/3 format 4096x3120 12Mp resolution like the original GH1 but shooting raw
3K 2880 x1620 16:9 at S16 format, equal to the ARRI Alexa
2k 2048x1152 0r 1080P HD 16:9 at 16mm format size.
4.3 micron pixels. With the continuing advances in sensor design and fabrication, a 13-15 stop DR range is possible. The new GH3 picked up 3 stops over the GH1 and 1.5 stops of DR over the GH2 moving from a 12mp to 16mp sensor with smaller pixels. It is the reduction in power consumption and inherent thermal noise from new fab processes that improves significantly with each generation.
Useful for anything from high quality stills to 1080p or lower video. I love the idea of extracting decent stills from a raw motion stream.
4k cinema is already here in the US, every major chain screen in my market area converted to 4k digital a year ago, more than 40 screens in all. 4k Super HD was the big news for new consumer TV's and projectors at CES this year.
By the time such a camera could be developed, the 4k TV format (3880x2160) will be an established broadcast standard and TV costs will be dropping into the mass market consumer range.
I still like the minimalist operational simplicity of the Digital Bolex model, raw only, but I do crave more resolution, more DR, and higher frame rates for some of the large screen fine art gallery work I would love to develop.
An Epic Dragon would be the best, but a $30k+ hobby camera is out of the question unless I win the lottery. From what Red has demonstrated so far Dragon is easily making 17 stops DR without any HDR gimmickry from pixels that have shrunk from 5.4m to 5m.
What you do with 17 stops in post is up to you, but most new TV's now support up to at least 12 bit color depth and DR that exceeds the BTU.709 HD signal standard. This standard too is being revised to reflect the improvements in display technology.
11:00 am
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
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Oceanus said
a little positive encouragement from "the outside" might serve as a helpful perspective
It is definitely helpful 
thank you!
wado1942 said
If you were to go for a smaller sensor, you'd probably be dealing with 1280 x 720 resolution, though. Otherwise, you'd be losing latitude due to smaller pixels and that's not a sacrifice I'd be willing to make.
Yup exactly, if we made a D8 it would be 1280 x 720. But are there lenses that are enticing for that format? Or would we build something with a built in lens? I guess I don't have a handle on the Super 8 raw market.
12:19 pm
January 15, 2013
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I don't think there would be a real D8 market, tbh. Smartphones are all over the place already.
A D35 would make total sense, on the other hand.
12:21 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 18, 2012
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I think the super eight raw market is yours for the taking! Aside from kineraw s8, the flea, and the gopro Modded by novo, the market is wide open.
11:36 pm
March 28, 2012
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hieber said
Thanks joe for the swift reply, i'll start buying batteries and cards and such.
Oceanus and James, I'm a naysayer?
The Kickstarter Backer badge below your forum avatar would indicate no. 
I was referring to the contingent which declared Digital Bolex to be a scam from day one. Those that still believe it won't happen even as cameras and lens prototypes show up. Those people who, for reasons known only to them and in face of facts to the contrary, say the pictures and videos we've see from Elle and Joe mean nothing. The people who say your Kickstarter money is going to be stashed away and you'll never see it again or a camera...ever. Those poeple, heiber... (can I call you heiber?) are naysayers.
3:38 am
March 19, 2012
Online
Yup exactly, if we made a D8 it would be 1280 x 720. But are there lenses that are enticing for that format? Or would we build something with a built in lens? I guess I don't have a handle on the Super 8 raw market.
I'd just use a regular C-Mount, like the Beaulieus S8s do. Those working on the cheap can use 1/3" CCTV lenses and those wanting better can use Angies (available down to 6mm or less) or your lenses. I can't speak for others as far as the market goes, but I'm afraid my freelance business is expensive enough that I won't be able to afford a D16 any time soon. A minimalist D8, on the other hand, would probably be easy enough. My fear would be that not having hundreds of millions of pixels will make people not take it seriously, even though the vast majority of lower end HD cameras don't even meet SD resolution limitations.
[edit] For the record, though, I'd rather have a D16 
4:12 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 17, 2012
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wado1942 said
My fear would be that not having hundreds of millions of pixels will make people not take it seriously...
[edit] For the record, though, I'd rather have a D16
I think the biggest issue the public would have is DoF greater than 1" and the inability to use EF lenses.
7:54 pm
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Kickstarter Backer
March 18, 2012
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Ari Davidson said
wado1942 said
My fear would be that not having hundreds of millions of pixels will make people not take it seriously...
[edit] For the record, though, I'd rather have a D16
I think the biggest issue the public would have is DoF greater than 1" and the inability to use EF lenses.
hahaha. I'm pretty sure the 5D MKIII can shoot at 230230203200323 iso.
9:21 pm
March 28, 2012
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Ari Davidson said
wado1942 said
My fear would be that not having hundreds of millions of pixels will make people not take it seriously...
[edit] For the record, though, I'd rather have a D16
I think the biggest issue the public would have is DoF greater than 1" and the inability to use EF lenses.
Ouch. So hurtful. But so true.
7:18 am
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
April 23, 2012
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hieber said
Hello joe,
Since I didn't get a reply in the other thread I thought Id try here.
Could we get a status update?
Where are you guys in the process?
Are you still thinking that the cameras will ship Q1 this year?
Hi Joe/Elle,
Hope all's going well, its soon approaching the end of Q1 and I'm wondering where we're up to with footage and shipping dates.
As previously mentioned I have nearly finished the screenplay I'm writing and will soon be looking to shoot with the D16, a good estimate would be helpful so I can plan ahead.
Little concerned that there's a lot of talk about lenses, lens mounts and now D35 etc with no fixed date on the camera or footage. I understand there has been delays and am happier with the end result of the D16, would be nice if we could stay on track with the D16 and forget about everything else (for now). When the D16 arrives this whole forum is going to be full of the backers (including me) testing and giving their experience and insight into the camera, firmware and its right and wrongs.
Not meaning to cause trouble here just looking for some confirmed dates or estimates, no mater how soon or far away they are.
10:17 pm
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
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Jade Lane said Little concerned that there's a lot of talk about lenses, lens mounts and now D35 etc with no fixed date on the camera or footage. I understand there has been delays and am happier with the end result of the D16, would be nice if we could stay on track with the D16 and forget about everything else (for now). When the D16 arrives this whole forum is going to be full of the backers (including me) testing and giving their experience and insight into the camera, firmware and its right and wrongs.
Not meaning to cause trouble here just looking for some confirmed dates or estimates, no mater how soon or far away they are.
Hi Jade, Please don't be concerned. The lenses are being made by Kish in LA and in no way what so ever slow down the progress of the D16. And literally the only person "working" on the D35 is me, and all I am doing is researching S35 sensors when I have the time (which is not right now).
We are very close to getting footage with essentially a production model D16, as soon as we have it I will post it here for all to see in raw.
We are still hoping to deliver cameras this quarter. We are really really close. I am doing all I can to understand time lines and let people know as much as possible, but a solid date is just not available right now. We have all of the electronics assembled and working in unison, but there is an issue with the image path in the FPGA, we are diligently working through it, every day there are small but meaningful victories. Sometime soon we will get footage. We are doing our best.
Please be just a little more patient with us. Thank you all for your support and patience. Joe
10:52 pm
June 22, 2012
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In all honesty, when I look at the trouble BM is having, now with the flange distance, I think you need to do quite some testing with prototypes. There are always unexpected obstacles.
"Überraschung findet stets dann statt,
wenn man sie nicht erwartet hat"
(Wilhelm Busch)
"Surprise always happens when you didn't expect it" or, to keep the rhyme:
"Surprise is always happening,
when you didn't expect a thing"
9:01 am
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
April 23, 2012
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joerubinstein said
Jade Lane said Little concerned that there's a lot of talk about lenses, lens mounts and now D35 etc with no fixed date on the camera or footage. I understand there has been delays and am happier with the end result of the D16, would be nice if we could stay on track with the D16 and forget about everything else (for now). When the D16 arrives this whole forum is going to be full of the backers (including me) testing and giving their experience and insight into the camera, firmware and its right and wrongs.
Not meaning to cause trouble here just looking for some confirmed dates or estimates, no mater how soon or far away they are.
Hi Jade, Please don't be concerned. The lenses are being made by Kish in LA and in no way what so ever slow down the progress of the D16. And literally the only person "working" on the D35 is me, and all I am doing is researching S35 sensors when I have the time (which is not right now).
We are very close to getting footage with essentially a production model D16, as soon as we have it I will post it here for all to see in raw.
We are still hoping to deliver cameras this quarter. We are really really close. I am doing all I can to understand time lines and let people know as much as possible, but a solid date is just not available right now. We have all of the electronics assembled and working in unison, but there is an issue with the image path in the FPGA, we are diligently working through it, every day there are small but meaningful victories. Sometime soon we will get footage. We are doing our best.
Please be just a little more patient with us. Thank you all for your support and patience. Joe
Great thanks for the reassurance Joe, building a system around the D16 now and upgrading all my equipment to accommodate (apart from my collection of rare C-mount lenses that are patiently waiting for the D16) can't wait.
10:12 pm
May 27, 2012
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Thyl said
In all honesty, when I look at the trouble BM is having, now with the flange distance, I think you need to do quite some testing with prototypes. There are always unexpected obstacles. (end of quote)
true. And there are a couple of other problems that may occur. Reading the Red or BMC forum, horror stories like complete failure of the camera are not rare. That's one reason I kept my money and just wait for technology to become reliable. I don't have money for a backup camera, and live/work in Europe. A failure would be a terrible thing for me, sending the camera to the US and waiting for months.
To be honest, I expect the d16 to be fully operational in 2014/15. And I'm not pessimistic at all. I just see what happens with new digital cinema cameras in general. One may be lucky and have no problems at all with the first version. I hope that will be the case for all d16 owners. But it's only hope, not assurance.
1:53 am
January 15, 2013
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Even if I trust the D16 team honest willingness to come up with a mature product off the shelf, I'm also wondering what the guarantee is that the first batch of D16 is perfectly functional and reliable... it seems very difficult to forecast as there are so many aspects playing together.
12:55 am
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
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pask74 said
Even if I trust the D16 team honest willingness to come up with a mature product off the shelf, I'm also wondering what the guarantee is that the first batch of D16 is perfectly functional and reliable.
We are going to be testing the cameras as thoroughly as possible. We will not release a camera that does not perform to an acceptable level. We have come too far and worked too hard to intentionally hurt our brand in that way.
If we wanted to take short cuts and just get something out we probably could have done that by now. We are working hard to build this the right way. It is taking longer, but hopefully it will work reliably.
7:27 am
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 18, 2012
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joerubinstein said
pask74 said
Even if I trust the D16 team honest willingness to come up with a mature product off the shelf, I'm also wondering what the guarantee is that the first batch of D16 is perfectly functional and reliable.We are going to be testing the cameras as thoroughly as possible. We will not release a camera that does not perform to an acceptable level. We have come too far and worked too hard to intentionally hurt our the brand in that way.
If we wanted to take short cuts and just get something out we probably could have done that by now. We are working hard to build this the right way. It is taking longer, but hopefully it will work reliably.
I'm sure the camera will be worth the wait! I appreciate all the hard work everyone is doing to make this camera happen.