Log In
Register
The Digital Bolex Forum
Topic RSS
1:46 am
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 18, 2012
Offline
This is a repost from the updates section, I would like to hear what other people think about the new lenses proposed by Kish Optics and Joe Rubinstein.
as far as Kish optics is concerned, the lens part of update 22 from the kickstarter campaign is embarrassing. The idea (that i bought into) behind the Digital Bolex was to be a creative tool that made the user control the various settings; asa, aperture, and focus.
I honestly cant see myself of any self respecting filmmaker put any money down on a lens that has a fixed stop if i cant change the shutter speed to compensate even more so if there is no aperture priority on the camera. That being said, I really hope this camera doesn't end up with the A priority.
The fixed focus idea is also horrid. There are only two circumstances in which i could see some one using them.
1. A video photo booth company in which the camera and subject are in the same place and the tolerance from the aperture keeps said person's mostly sharp. Joe Rubinstein, you sneaky fella, see what you did there.
2. Interviews, again, both the camera and the subject don't move and are predetermined distances so the interviewee can remain tack.
for the rest of us, if you are focusing using a predetermined focus point then your gonna have a baaaaad time. Yes your shots can be varied, and they will remain in focus, just mostly in focus though. and, if you are determined to have everything tack sharp then get used to having your subject in the exact same place every time. The background will also always be the same, which will either be in focus making it so separation of foreground and background is going to be iffy or its going to be set closer making landscape shots impossible.
and after all that, i will admit that if kish makes a well priced super wide lens, then that will be the lens i buy because the depth of field is so massive, and the price for an adjustable aperture is high enough that id be willing to make the sacrifice.
The hardest part about using the proposed set of lenses will be maintaining originality, if the the aperture the focal length and the focus distance are set then these lenses will work really well for certain shots, and the same shots will get used over and over again. I don't want to be watching another forum member's film and know exactly which lens he she was using because I have done roughly the same and out on production, I dont want to ever use the phrase "hey hand me the; landscape lens, the interview lens, and the two shot lens"
Elle, would you consider putting down your Zeiss CP.2 's or even Switar primes and shooting the next project with Kish fixed focus fixed aperture lenses?
I am sure that most everyone is waiting to see what these lenses are capable of, and if they are practical in the field.
7:01 am
June 22, 2012
Offline
You don't need them, you don't buy them.
Though I presume that most people would have expected lenses more in line with the typical specs of cine lenses; why not. There is really not a shortage of Super-16 capable lenses new and used, in c-mount, PL, or mft. You could spend 100 bucks, or 15000.
9:30 am
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
April 1, 2012
Offline
I've got to agree with Hieber here- a fixed focus, fixed aperture lens isn't necessarily useless, but it seriously limits what you can do creatively. Sure they could be preset for a nice OTS or whatever, but I also don't want my films to look like film 101 work. i.e. wide, 2-shot, ots, close-ups, next scene. Camera movement and placement is one of the key creative decisions in the film making process and not being able to pull focus or change aperture on a lens really limits what can be done with the camera.
As far as the point that Thyl makes, well yeah, I guess there are plenty of other options out there. And I wasn't expecting a miracle for such low prices, but I wasn't expecting this either. I'd rather sacrifice a bit of sharpness to be able to pull focus and change aperture. If that makes a lens cost $300 instead of $100, so be it. It's the difference between a lens that I can use everyday, versus a lens that's only good for one specific shot. I want to come up with shots on my own, rather than have my gear dictate what I can and cannot do.
I'm sure these lenses will be useful for some people, and like Hieber mentioned, a super-wide would be nice. But I think that for creative storytellers, this is far too limiting.
9:53 am
July 10, 2012
Offline
I think the lenses are being made for sub-1000 prices, which probably means serious compromises. I saw the wishlist for high-efficiency coatings, long throws and fast stops, but I don't see how that would come to pass without costing significant money. Even so, they will no doubt be optimal for producing great images. Will probably be a great buy on the wide end, especially if the make 8mm or wider
4:11 pm
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
Offline
Hey Guys,
I love the title of this thread 
This is also a repost from another thread, but I am seriously interested in this conversation so I'm posting here too!
First thanks for all your input, we read it all and your opinions are important to us and influence our choices.
Hieber and Wado, You are exactly right, there is already a great selection of lenses out there for 16mm, so how do we do something unique and different? One of my history of film professors once said a beautifully shot movie is one with a dozen amazing shots in it, if every shot is amazing it's a music video. I think that goes for unique shots too. Meaning that if you watch a movie and count the number of unique shots vs standard shots(medium, OTS, two shot, establishing) you will find that the number of standard shots far out weighs the unique shots, and that most films shoot with similar depth lenses at roughly the same angle, and roughly the same distance from the subject for a large majority of their shots. This is because we are comfortable with a certain film language at this point that communicates based on these choices. So if we develop lenses that are easy to use, super sharp, and are very cheap you can easily fill your quota for standard shots and concentrate more on your creative coverage. What if you're going to shoot a standard OTS sequence even once in just about every film you make, and I can give you a lens that you already know how to light for and use much faster and easier than any other lens and it gives you the sharpness, and more importantly the color clarity of a $1200 lens for $125? That doesn't sound interesting to you?
I'm not trying to say films are generic, or make everyone's films similar, I'm just trying to say standard coverage is important and probably a good place for us to start concerning lenses. These, hopefully, aren't the only lenses we will make, we have lots of ideas for lenses with moving parts but these will be the cheapest lenses we make probably, and they will give you unprecedented quality for price.
Anyway thanks again for your participation, the forum is becoming more popular so it is taking us a little bit more time to read through it and repond so please be patient with us.
And as always thank you for your support, Joe
7:49 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 17, 2012
Offline
Will the Kish lenses be set to infinity? Also what f stop they will be set to, any info on specifications would be great.
I think some new lenses on the market can't be a bad thing. I'm happy to use lenses designed for 16mm cinema and pay more for them. You can pick up a set primes designed for Super16 for 6k. That sounds more than fair when a set of lenses optimised for Super 35 is 60k
Are the lenses going to be rehoused still lenses Joe? I have heard that RED uses Sigma still glass in their zooms.
7:58 pm
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
Offline
Daniel Grey said
. I'm interested in finding out if the Kish lenses will have anything behind the subject out of focus or if they will be set to infinity. Also what f stop they will be set to, any info on specifications would be great.
I think some new lenses on the market can't be a bad thing. I'm happy to use lenses designed for 16mm cinema and pay more for them. You can pick up a set primes designed for Super16 for 6k. That sounds more than fair when a set of lenses optimised for Super 35 is 60k
Are the lenses going to be rehoused still lenses Joe? I have heard that RED uses Sigma still glass in their zooms.
Hey Daniel,
These will be brand new lenses designed from scratch in a way that hasn't been done before(so no recycled lens designs here)! The medium and close up lenses will be set to average distance for two shots and close ups and will have out of focus backgrounds like any other lens used in this way(depending on how far away the background is). The wides will be set to Hyper focus range.
I can't get into too many details, but this is what I'm saying about price. A set of S16mm primes for 6K or our set for $600. Obviously the primes with more flexibility will give you more options, but what if you could use our $600 primes for 60% - 70% of the shots you would use the $6K primes? And get the same image quality! Wouldn't that be an amazing deal?
8:21 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
March 17, 2012
Offline
joerubinstein said
I can't get into too many details, but this is what I'm saying about price. A set of S16mm primes for 6K or our set for $600. Obviously the primes with more flexibility will give you more options, but what if you could use our $600 primes for 60% - 70% of the shots you would use the $6K primes? And get the same image quality! Wouldn't that be an amazing deal?
Like I said new lenses are not a bad thing and since I already have a set of Super16 primes it sounds like a bargain $600 for a whole second set that I can use most of the time would be great. Especially if they are tiny lenses and fit in a little Pelican case. I can just leave the other set in the car.
8:04 am
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
May 8, 2012
Offline
Fixed focus isn't a problem for me, as Joe has pointed out - it's a great value to get a lot of shots for little money. I do have some questions about fixed aperature though. Wouldn't this feature basically require that the lenses would only be usable outdoors during the magic hour? No sunny 16 applications?
Let me advance this scenario - one type of filmmaker who uses the D16 but is not invested in lights - writes his/her script to shoot during the day with mostly exterior shots. This filmmaker would need to invest in screw-on filters to allow them to shoot at all times during the day?
If this is correct, will the kish lenses have threads to accept screw-on filters?
11:24 am
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
Offline
harmonica said
Fixed focus isn't a problem for me, as Joe has pointed out - it's a great value to get a lot of shots for little money. I do have some questions about fixed aperature though. Wouldn't this feature basically require that the lenses would only be usable outdoors during the magic hour? No sunny 16 applications?
Let me advance this scenario - one type of filmmaker who uses the D16 but is not invested in lights - writes his/her script to shoot during the day with mostly exterior shots. This filmmaker would need to invest in screw-on filters to allow them to shoot at all times during the day?
If this is correct, will the kish lenses have threads to accept screw-on filters?
Hi Harmonica,
Yes there will be ways to add ND filters to the lenses, and also we are essentially making two sets of lenses, a wide, medium, and close for out door bright shade use, and a wide, medium, close for indoor use. So hopefully between these 6 lenses one could shoot a good amount of coverage outside and inside
I am very open to suggestion right now! So if you want something let's hear it! If you love or hate this idea I want to hear it!
Thanks! Joe
12:11 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
May 8, 2012
Offline
ok so the outdoor lenses will have a fixed f/stop that is more closed and the indoor lenses will have a fixed f/stop that is opened up. Then use filters to stop down more if needed?
that's interesting. I'm going to guess here and say that because you wanted a really good image for a really low price you made certain decisions to allow for less cost but it also impacted flexibility too?
I think that anyone who is upset that you aren't releasing a cine lens is forgetting the fact that you never promised lenses with the kickstarter campaign and that the camera DOES take other lenses. In my mind people either buy them or use other stuff.
I was expecting a sort of new switar lense that could be adjusted [focus and iris] if you're keeping score - but am intrigued at what you're developing.
3:10 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
April 7, 2012
Offline
Joe, how much more resources and cost would it add to make the focus adjustable ?
And how much sharpness would we lose with it? I would think minimal.
$600 is already very cheap. I would suspect having at least an adjustable focus would bring in more people, even is it doubles the price of the set.
3:24 pm
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
Offline
Yes you got it exactly, we would like to make more traditional cine lenses, but there are great companies already doing that, who are servicing the market quite nicely! We don't want to compete with a company that is already doing a good job, we want to open uncontested market space offering new value to people. There is another "Lean" practice in business, which is to always start with the minimum viable product. I think we have done that well in this case in again a new way that I am proud of, offering really exciting image quality for such a low price. In the future though, we will find ways to innovate lenses with moving parts. As was pointed out in another thread, Anamorphic seems to be a place not many companies are going these days
Thanks for your ideas and support, Joe
4:07 pm
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
Offline
analoggab said
Joe, how much more resources and cost would it add to make the focus adjustable ?
And how much sharpness would we lose with it? I would think minimal.$600 is already very cheap. I would suspect having at least an adjustable focus would bring in more people, even is it doubles the price of the set.
Being able to move the focus ring would change the resolving power of the lenses significantly, especially when the lenses are small. And it's much more complicated than just being able to move the front element or not. For a proper focusing range we would need to add space between the first two elements, which often means adding another lens element, probably make all of the lenses much bigger, add significant cost, and lower over all resolving power.
Picture an optical path, when you change the front element it creates a 2x or 3x change to the next element, and that change is multiplied by the element after that, unless you add an intentional constricting element that moves in tandom. The image circle at the sensor stage is effected by this too, changing depending on element movement, this is why you have different vignettes depending on focus / zoom ranges on different lenses. So what you end up doing is creating a lens that creates an appropriate image circle at it's closest focusing distance. This means that at the optimal lens distance, the one you are probably going to use for most of your shots, the image circle is too big, meaning that you have intentionally lost resolving power. On top of all that when stray rays bounce around inside the lens they create a fogging that generally reduces image sharpness.
Obviously there are amazing lenses out there that have figured out how to get around many of these issues and created great products, usually much bigger than we are thinking and much more expensive, but none the less great.
And I'm not saying every lens in the world should be fixed. I'm just saying if you want the best 25mm f4 image at a standard focusing depth for the lowest price, this may be the best way to do it
Although I am open to suggestion!
Thanks for your participation! Joe
4:50 pm
March 27, 2012
Offline
I like your out of the box contrarian thinking Joe. The whole Digital Bolex project reflects this in many ways, but the more you communicate your rationale behind the choices your are making, the more I sense just how much in depth thought has gone into them. Hey keep it up. You continually surprise us and force us think about these things in less conventional ways too.
I don't think any of the prototype footage you have posted so far gives us much indication of what the final product will be capable of.
This fashion piece shot on the Ikonoskop DII is probably more representative of what the Kodak sensor can perform like. I watched this and shortly after happened to see a trailer for Cowboys and Aliens. I found the similarities in color quality, dynamic range and texture between the two quite amazing. If your camera and software are as good as you want them to be, the D16 will definitely be capable of unique film like image quality, much more so than any prosumer price range video camera or DSLR.
5:09 pm
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
Offline
Thanks Razz! Your support means a lot to us!
You are absolutely right, there were many limitations to the footage that we posted, including the fact that our post processing software didn't exist!
That piece is beautiful! We here at Digital Bolex are inspired by the people and products of Ikonoskop!
5:44 pm
Camera Owner
Kickstarter Backer
May 8, 2012
Offline
Joe - have you decided what focal length the wide, medium and long lens will be? Have you decided what the f/stop will be for each?
Finally [not to ask too many questions at once] have you looked into what filters you would suggest based on the decisions made for the second question?
[e.g. open lens f/2.0 this filter will make it 2.8, 4.0, 5.6 OR closed lens f/5.6 this filter will make it 8.0, 16]
Thanks!
6:40 pm
Camera Owner
February 28, 2012
Offline
We are still hammering out the details with Kish, we actually have our next meeting planned for tomorrow, so if you want to make some suggestions we are all ears
We probably won't have all the details locked down tomorrow, but as soon as we do I will let you guys know!
Thanks, Joe
9:56 pm
June 22, 2012
Offline
One nice feature about Super 16 is the ability to use wide aperture lenses. There are a number of 25 and 50 mm lenses in 1:0.95. What appears to be missing though is a lens in the range of 12 mm with a ratio of 1:1 or wider. Or dare I see, even a wide angle, like 8 mm. Of course, the front lenses get exceedingly huge with shorter focal lengths, but 12 mm should be feasible?!
11:50 am
July 10, 2012
Offline
perhaps they will offer different apertures for certain lenses.. like a 25 with a T2.1, T4, T16, etc. A fast 5mm or 8mm would be good, especially if they use the most common sizing for filter rings.. the target distance sweet spot will incur some serious tradeoffs for focal distance, but diopters would be cheap for a common filter size. In any case super-wide lenses tend to be very expensive for good optics and mechanics, so good optics and a good sweet spot will be great